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Orin Kerr schools Andrew McCarthy (and by extension, Liz Cheney). HT: Think Progress
Just for the record...
So, Rafique, just for the record, if the next administration chose to hire 7 lawyers for the DOJ who had all chosen to represent the KKK in a high profile case where the KKK had orchestrated the lynching of innocent African-Americans, that would be ok with you? You would have absolutely no qualms about it, no need to make them go on record as to why they, wealthy, high-powered lawyers chose to give their legal services, for free, to the lynchers?
Well, that's a mighty loaded question, Pat. For the record,
I never said I didn't have some qualms about the prospect of defending suspected detainees. If seven lawyers defended people accused of being involved with the KKK, I'd have to judge the case on the evidence, but I'm sure of this: The mere fact of defending them, in accordance with their right to a fair trial, wouldn't make those lawyers in league with the KKK.
I don't know why those lawyers chose to defend those accused of terrorism, but seeing as even those suspected of terrorism are entitled to a defense, I just don't see how doing their jobs leaves them suspect to be linked with terrorists.
But that's the thing...
Kerr and the entire crew defending the lawyers are saying they have no qualms at all, and that it's not "exceptional" for them to do what they did, and that all the folks who agree with Andy McCarthy are flat wrong to even raise any questions at all about the propriety of those lawyers' decisions to represent the terrorists.
Remember, these folks didn't just sign on to represent some guys accused of a crime. They signed to represent people like Kaleed Sheik Mohammed and others whose guilt and complicity in acts of war levied against the United States is not much in doubt.
How many high-profile, big-dollar law firm attorneys volunteered to do pro bono work for any of the victims to help them find a way to sue al Qaeda and any financiers of terror? These lawyers weren't appointed by a court to provide representation to an unpopular defendant. They sought out the opportunity to try to advocate on behalf of providing the full procedural panoply of due process protections to individuals who were apprehended by the U.S. military during wartime, individuals who are American citizens or residents.
If I'm a private citizen in need of an attorney, it's perfectly legitimate for me to decide that I don't want to be represented by the sleazy lawyer who has chosen to advertise on the local park bench and on late-night TV. He's just doing his job, and there's nothing illegal or against the rules of the bar association for him to do that advertising. But his CHOICE to advertise in that way tells us something about him, and each of us is entitled to use that information to determine whether we really want to be associated with him by having him represent us. Well, these 7 lawyers (8, when you count Attorney General Holder himself) represent ALL of us now. I am their client, along with you and Simon and every other American out there. It's entirely legitimate for me to question the choice made by them, to represent our enemy in war, and use that information to decide that I don't want them representing me now. Had they been military lawyers or otherwise court-assigned by a judge trying to find somebody to provide the representation required by law, I'd say ok, do your job, argue what you've got to, and no problems. But that's not what happened here, and so I do have qualms about their involvement, and I want a lot more evidence about their motives before I'm willing to agree that these 7 (8) should represent me.
And how exactly is it a loaded question? All I've done is switched the identity and the specific type of horrible crime? In both the real world and my KKK scenario, lawyers are simply representing an unpopular client, right? Certainly the KKK is no worse, somehow, than al Qaeda, right? What evidence would you need to judge that case that's different from the totality of the evidence of which you are aware as you take the Orin Kerr side of the argument in favor of NOT questioning in any way the "al Qaeda 7"? Remember, the Department of Justice refused to even IDENTIFY the lawyers involved, denying Congress the ability to actually gather any evidence against them.
Are those 7 lawyers (plus the Attorney General) terrorists themselves? I'm sure they're not. None of them are likely as stupid or deluded as Lynne Stewart, a lawyer for the specific terrorists behind the 1993 WTC bombing, who was recently convicted of aiding terrorists by passing information from the imprisoned "Blind Sheik" to his followers, which was used to foment additional acts of terrorism. No, I doubt they're terrorists. But McCarthy doesn't say that they are, and that's not the basis for his argument against their representing the United States of America at the highest levels of the Department of Justice.
Okay, so clearly, providing
Okay, so clearly, providing legal representation to an accused Al Qaeda (unlawful) combatant does not make an attorney a terrorist, or even a terrorist-sympathizer. At the same time, I think we would all agree that we can (and should) be interested in the background of any attorneys being brought into the Justice Department -- if they are going to represent the people's interests, I think the people have a right to know who is being hired on their behalf. And in doing so, we should be looking at the entire body of work in an attorney's history, not just the one plaintiff who happened to be an accused unlawful combatant. If we're talking about John Adams-- someone who was committed to the American cause but nonetheless chose to defend the British troops in the Boston Massacre aftermath-- then it will be plainly obvious upon reviewing their history and the matter can be dismissed. If on the other hand, there's a pattern of these kinds of cases, then it might very well speak volumes about the lawyer in question, which in turn might entitle Sen. Grassley (whom I understand to have instigated this whole debate) to question whether or not the DOJ attorney truly is the right person for that particular job... and to take action accordingly.
We would absolutely be concerned if an attorney who made a career of defending the KKK were appointed to DOJ's civil rights division. (If we're not, we're being very irresponsible.) We would absolutely be concerned if an attorney who made a career defending the mafia were appointed to a DOJ position covering racketeering cases. (If we're not, we're being very irresponsible.) And so on, and so on. Again keeping in mind that we're only interested in determining if there's a pattern and not simply a one-off pro bono case, why should attorneys defending accused terrorists be any different?
--Bobby
Exactly...
The video Liz Cheney produced is probably over-the-top; I haven't looked at it closely enough to form an opinion. But the stone-walling by AG Holder of requests for information by a Congressional oversight committee is likewise inappropriate (particularly when coupled with Holder's very convenient "accidental" omissions of the briefs HE submitted on behalf of al Qaeda detainees in his submissions made in connection with his confirmation hearings). Holder says that there's no questioning allowed, no querying of those attorneys, no review of their overall record, is permissible at all. That's just wrong, even if the other side is also going too far.
Personally, I think McCarthy makes some very good points about why the actions of several of these attorneys choosing to represent enemy combatants during time of war is very troubling.
Bobby, I agree with you that we ought to know the background of
anyone representing us, and DoJ lawyers are no exception. Honestly, I have no problem asking legit questions, but the Cheney ad, and statements by McCarthy and others looks less like question-asking, than accusations. Certainly, if we had a lawyer who had a career of defending the KKK, or similar organizations, I'd want his record looked at with extra scrutiny, and I'll be honest, I'd be more than concerned. Same with the Mafia. Same with al-Qaeda. The problem is, no such evidence as come up for these seven (plus AG Holder), so we get this outrageous idea that they're suspect by default, which is the vibe I get from the ad, McCarthy, and Cheney.
Not much evidence because...
When the DOJ refuses to even identify those high-ranking political appointees who have chosen to do pro bono work for the detainees, it's rather difficult to ask questions, don't you agree? Had the DOJ identified them and actually answered some questions, perhaps this could have all been avoided. But they didn't. They took the position that Congress had no right to inquire about the matter AT ALL.
OK, fair enough, but let's assume that this whole campaign is
about trying to inform the public about what is allegedly going on at the DoJ. Don't you think it's a bit suspect, when the people leading this charge have made up their minds that these lawyers are in the tank for al-Qaeda?
Pat, let me ask you this: Do you believe that people accused of
terrorism have a right to trial? If you do, then you have to recognize that those lawyers were doing their jobs. Now as for me, if I had any doubt of the innocence of some accused of terrorism, or being involved with the KKK, I don't feel I have the objectivity, or impartiality to represent them, but I'm not a lawyer.
I don't know why these lawyers chose to represent these detainees pro bono. Perhaps they just wanted to make a statement about the rule of law. Perhpas they wanted to prove themselves. I don't know. It's not heroic, and it's certainly won't win friends, but it's the job of a lawyer to represent his client.
Now, I reject out of hand the assertion that Cheney and company are simply "asking questions." the ad basically implies a link with al-qaeda, and McCarthy explicitly makes that connection. How is that an unbiased inquiry? I'm glad you made the clear distinction between Lynne Stewart, who in fact did gave aid and comfort to a terrorist, and those lawyers, who barring evidence proving the contrary, haven't. McCarthy and Cheney make no such distinction, and it seems to me that the argument they're making is that the mere act of representing those accused of terrorism is itself enabling terrorism, and it's up to the lawyer to prove why it's not.
Forgive me if I find that ludicrous.
Read this...
Read McCarthy's latest post on the subject of the pro bono lawyers for the al Qaeda detainees.
Frankly, while I do credit McCarthy for at least trying to make
distinctions, his argument seems to be contanimated all the way with the idea that the Left is in common cause with radical Islamism. It clouds his whole argument.
Believe it or not, Jonah Goldberg's argument makes much more sense.
Read McCarthy and tell me exactly where he's wrong...
His argument about the left and the common cause its intellectual leaders have with Islamism is very subtle and nuanced. Read the McCarthy link I posted in another comment, where he explains it in some detail. I'm not sure how else you explain some things like this. Of course the European left is not the same as the American left, but they certainly share some philosophical underpinnings, and the President himself called on the campaign trail for improving our relations with our European allies and learning from them.
Here's what happened in Norway. The Norwegian Ministry of Children, Equality, and Social Inclusion named Mahdi Hassan the "Role Model of the Year" for all of Norway. But Hassan advocates for a legal ban on homosexuality. When asked whether there should be the death penalty for homosexuals, Hassan said that that is "up to each individual country to decide." It is simply unfathomable to imagine a Christian, any Christian, being given such an award in any modern Western country if that Christian professed a belief that stoning of homosexuals should be left up to each country to decide. Why is that?
Why are the likes of Jennifer Daskal, one of the DOJ attorneys who represented al Qaeda detainees so quick to blame America for the choices OTHERS make to become terrorists and kill Americans and innocents of all stripes?
As McCarthy notes, this is not about disqualification but about political accountability. If the Administration believes there is nothing wrong with the advocacy made by these individuals, let them defend them. Let them explain whether Daskal still believes that it is inappropriate to hold detainees accountable for their terrorist actions simply because they were 16 at the time they committed their acts of terrorism. Do you think no Republican DOJ nominee has ever been quizzed about their clients and the arguments they made on behalf of those clients before?
Not defending any of that Pat, but I read every one of the those
links, and maybe the distinction between the Left in general, and certain Lefty elements in particular isn't a big deal to you, but I think it matters. Look, I know something about what's going on in Europe, I've read a lot, but I don't think that's exactly what Obama had in mind when he talked about reaching out. I think you gloss over the real distinctions between the Euroleft and the American Left, not to mention the unique problems of Europe versus America. Make no mistake, it wouldn't take very long to find the same illiberal, intellectually and morally bankrupt dead thinking amongst certain left-wing circles here in the States, but as I said, there's something called painting with a broad brush.
As For Daskal, again, I don't defend her views, assuming those are a fair depiction of them. My point is that McCarthy seems to operate from a view that the Left has a natural affinity for Islamism, and ignores any evidence that would counter that. I just don't put much stock in that sort of thinking.
There's really three separate
There's really three separate discussions going on in the linked debates. The first (that Leftism shares anti-Western roots with and is therefore inclined to provide intellectual support to Islamism) and the third (whether or not Islam and Islamism are two separate concepts), while intriguing and worthy of discussion, aren't germane to the second: what is the significance of the decisions of 7 (or 8 or 10, depending on whom you ask) Obama Administration lawyers to have defended Al Qaeda unlawful combatants prior to joining the Administration?
I haven't seen the Cheney advertisement, so I can't comment on that, but if it suggests that the attorneys in question are Al Qaeda sympathizers simply because of their past caseload, then I think that's ridiculous (and it wouldn't surprise me, considering the source). I think we can all agree that providing legal representation to accused terrorists does not necessarily make one a terrorist sympathizer (and, having a few colleagues whose careers were destroyed and lives put at risk because over-zealous defense attorneys-- illegally, I might add-- disclosed their identities does make it difficult for me to view many of these attorneys with a clean lens).
On the other hand, I think we are perfectly entitled-- nay, expected-- to review the past caseloads of all politically-appointed attorneys who will be representing the US Government (and by proxy, the American people). If there's no pattern, there's no cause to be concerned. If they're working in the family law division or anti-trust division (such that any of those organizations exist, as I've never worked inside DOJ) then there would similarly be no cause for concern. But, in my opinion, Jennifer Daskal in particular seems to warrant closer attention, especially as she works in the National Security Division and would seemingly be responsible for articulating many of the causes she previously rejected out of hand. It's not an immediate disqualifier, but if no one is asking these questions, then the entire concept of checks-and-balances gets thrown out the window.
And I would respectfully add that Attorney General Holder's decision not to disclose (or to delay disclosing) their identities when requested by Senator Grassley only adds to the air of suspicion that the Administration was trying to hide something... If the shoe were on the other foot, this is exactly the kind of issue that the Obama campaign would have hammered the Bush Administration for doing (and, in my opinion, rightfully so).
--Bobby
And I would respectfully add
Fair enough.
I certainly agree in part...
I agree with you, of course, that there are significant differences between the Euro-left and the American-left. And we always warn of the dangers of labels here in these parts. But, as you acknowledge, there are some commonalities between the two in at least some circles. Thus, I think the point is relevant when examining specific individual nominees, to determine whether that nominee is in one of those circles of commonality.
As for the Cheney ad, as I said earlier it is doubtless overblown. But sometimes over-reacting is the only way to draw attention to a problem which is being ignored. We wouldn't be having this conversation at all, but for the over-the-top nature of the ad, which brought media and blog attention to an issue which had more or less been silently festering as Beltway insider baseball.
I think if the argument that Cheney and crew argue that they are
trying to make, had been advanced (if one asssumes that's their real argument), let's say the way Bobby did, I'd have no major problem with it, but overblown seems to be the default setting with Cheney and McCarthy's arguments. I think when you blow things out of proportion, it undermines debate, even for potentially important issues (like climate change for instance--and I mean, both sides of the issue.)