StubbornFacts
Stubborn Facts
Stubborn Facts

Navigation

User login

Subscribe via RSS

Resources

The latest from our partner, the PoliGazette

Blog Roll

Tilting at Windmills

Submitted by Tully on Sun, 06/29/2008 - 12:09pm

Much of the idea of alt-energy is based on the use of alternative electrical production replacing current electrical production AND an increased use of electrical-powered transportation replacing current petroleum- powered transportation. And some have suggested that no matter what we should KEEP oil prices artifically high through government fiat to encourage the development of alt-energy.

Sancho! My lance!

So, a few uncomfortable realities. First, other than than through psychological/political factors almost nothing we do today will have an immediate impact on energy prices. The basis for current high oil prices is largely political and psychological, and unrest in the Middle East is not likely to abate anytime soon, nor is Hugo Chavez likely to decide he loves us, and as long as current pricing brings in both political and market rewards to producers (which, I note, are mostly nations and not companies) higher than boosting production and lowering prices does, the bubble has ongoing support.

Only medium to long range changes in fundamentals are going to have much impact on the short-term situation. That's not contradictory--much of the psychological support for the bubble is the knowledge that we are not doing ANYTHING constructive to alleviate the foreign dependency problem. And regardless of what the alt-energy fans will tell you, just supporting research and passing laws won't do a damn thing to address that. It takes actual steps towards increased and enhanced domestic energy production to change it. Such as opening up some of our massive domestic energy reserves to production.

Take notice--this applies just as much to alt-energy as it does to fossil hydrocarbons. The argument that new fossil fuel development will take years ALSO applies just as much or more so to alt-energy. The main differences are that the fossil fuels are actually already there, and beginning development of them is a sure thing as compared to a speculative gamble, and that shifting our transportation energy requirements to electricity would take even longer and cost even more than boosting our oil production.

Let's begin with the idea of alt-electrical production. We actually do have cost-efficient technology to implement some additional solar and wind production. BUT...the amount of current generation capacity we can replace with these technologies is limited. And in any case it only marginally addresses petroleum prices--more than half of our power production comes from coal. We have no shortage of coal, and newer technology will improve our production efficiency, giving us more electrical power anyway, as would adding more nuclear plants. So what's the problem there?

First, the infrastructure to distribute that electricity is limited. Our national grid is already at capacity, and adding capacity will take years. Even if we had unlimited electrical generation right now, we would be unable to distribute it. We must (regardless) improve our national grid infrastructure, adding more capacity. As the grid stands now, if we converted all of our cars to electrical power tomorrow, there would simply not be enough grid power available to charge them.

Second, small-scale production of electricity such as home solar photovoltaic (PV) systems is simply not yet cost-effective, certainly not for the limited spaces available in urban areas. A typical home has the space available to produce about one-third of its required electricity, but that at a capital cost that would take half a century or more to pay back assuming a zero-interest opportunity cost of capital. Until and unless small-scale solar hits about a 10 to 15 year investment breakeven at current interest rates, it's economically unsound. We need a reduction in costs of about 2/3 to 3/4 at today's prices and interest rates for it to make real sense. "Net metering" whereby excess production above household needs can be sold back to the utility grid reduces that requirement somewhat, but we're still not in cost-effective range, and we don't know when the technology will get there. And don't forget #1--our grid capacity is already maxed. WE NEED MORE GRID CAPACITY. And that will take more than the 5 to 10 year lead time of boosting fossil fuel production to accomplish. The "won't hep us now" argment is completely hollow--NOTHING other than asset-bubble-bursting perceptions will help us immediately, and we need to start doing what will help us in five years, ten years, and onward.

Wind generation is limited for obvious reasons--there are only so many places available that are suitable for wind production. Use those places, great. I'm a big fan! (Pun.)

But our big problem with the oil run-up is portable fuel for transportation. It is no exaggeration at all to say that the cost of portable fuel has a major and direct impact on our economy and our future ecnomic prospects. Products have to be moved to market, and we can't all telecommute. Nor can we all live in big cities...or want to. The geography of our nation is completely unsuited for mass transportation as a solution. We grew to where we are on transportation, and to maintain our nation we must have reasonably inexpensive transportation, or decline as a nation.

Grain ethanol is limited. We simply can't produce enough of it to have a major imapct on fuel cost, and trying diverts resouces away from food production. Given the inherent limitations, subsidizing it is downright insane. Cellulosic ethanol is not nearly so limited--we can use ANY plant material, and will. But it still won't be enough. Bio-deisel has much the same limitations as grain ethanol. The Holy Grail of bio-crude for domestic fuel lies in synthetic crudes such as algal oil and bacterial oil, IF they can be developed into economic cost-effectiveness.

The automobile and freight truck or their updated equivalents are simply not going away, and the fuel to power same must come from somewhere. Buying that fuel from foreigners at current prices is downright insane when we have such enormous reserves available to us that can be produced at half or less of current world market prices. Even at half the current price, buying it from foreigners and exporting all those dollars is crazy if we could grow it ourselves (at carbon negativity or nuetrality to boot, for you warmists).

Despite decades of warnings, we have collectively sat on our thumbs or chased idiocies such as grain ethanol susbidies. It's time to begin to address the real problem--our dependence on others to feed our energy hunger. We can't just go on a diet--as a nation we would starve to death. Our health as a nation requires affordable energy. We can't get there overnight, we must plan for the future, and we must do so realistically.

That means expanding grid capacity/infrastructure. That means building more electrical power plants of whatever kind--coal, gas, nuclear, wind, solar--to feed that enhanced and improved grid. That means opening the domestic fossil fuel production spigots that Congress has kept closed for so long--and perhaps even restricting or heavily taxing any exports of same, to provide some degree of separation between doemstic and world markets. That means focusing research efforts on the existing technologies that have the greatest potential for the lowest long-term costs, such as bio syncrudes that can utilize existing production infrastructure. And yes, that means implementing "renewable" electrical sources, particularly small-scale localized production such as home solar, as and when they become economically viable.

If we don't begin and begin in a big way, we will never get there, and we will radically decline as a nation. If we don't begin and begin in a big way, the perceptions that feed the current asset-bubble of oil prices will continue. Activists and partisans can finger-point and pimp their preferred "solutions" all they want, but this is the reality--we must expand and fortify our domestic production of our energy sources, or be forever dependent on the kindness of strangers, many of whom wish us to dry up and blow away, picking off bits of our national flesh along the way.

To help ourselves in the short term, we must act for the long term.

I'm "some" now? I'd renew

I'm "some" now?

I'd renew our argument, Tully, but I have a broader point to make: it's 94 degrees here in lovely Pelago, Italy. And no one has air conditioning because power costs are too high.

People, you don't want to live this way. This is not life. Something must be done before the US is just a great big Italy.

If it means drilling right through an actual living Alaskan caribou, or paving Arizona in solar cells, or sending the Marines to seize Libya, or building a nuclear power plant right in Tully's back yard, something must be done before you, yes you find yourself in my situation.

Air conditioning is not negotiable. I don't care how many endangered species get in the way. Maybe they should have tried harder to evolve.

You are one of many...

You are one of many, but you were the most available citation. :-) PS--drop the government-enforced artificial floor under energy prices bit, and I obviously agree with your entire referenced statement.

or building a nuclear power plant right in Tully's back yard

Too late! But I don't mind. My A/C works.

I don't care how many endangered species get in the way.

Pretty much none. Dams are much worse for that than any of our available future paths. The big objections are carbon (for the global warmists) and hair-shirtism that wants us all to suffer, regardless.

Pave Arizona? Do solar-alt-energy on heat-waste public lands? Some are trying, but have discovered to their great surprise that they too must assess impacts by the rules and file environmental impact statements and such. Seems that covering tens or hundreds of thousands of acres of desert with solar arrays and building the GRID INFRASTRUCTURE to really use them means following the same rules as used for coal plants and such. After all, one might marginally inconvenience the desert tortoise or Mojave ground squirrel. (PS--caribou aren't even remotely endangered, and should be drilled with .30 caliber or so implements, then properly handled for efficient consumption. They're yummy.)

We don't want Libya. Not enough oil and the supply lines are too long. We want domestic production. Clean is good. Safe is good. Our technology for oil extraction has improved enormousously since the spills of last century that first inspired the moratorium. It's time we acknowledged that and got busy.

Reasonable strategy should be obvious to the reasonable....

A sound energy policy is actually obvious when you push ideology aside. I agree with your remarks and you have been pushing your line for some time.

1. Start extraction of the 20 billion barrels of fossil fuel that are in less sensitive environmental areas. I have my doubts about the content of Anwar and personally think it should be a national reserve. You know how many products require oil? We probably cannot replace them all in the next several decades with artificial products. And this extraction must be safe and attached to experimental processes such as carbon sequestration.

2. Advance clean coal and ultra modern terrorist proof nuclear where containment vessels become storage vessels. Advance sane nuclear proliferation policies. Together the above BRIDGE the gap between now and feasible alternatives. Photo cells are 15 cents per kw compared to 5 cents for coal.

3. Cellulosic ethanol can be organized by State programs recycling waste products.

6. Continued research on hydrogen, fuel cells, solar, wind, wave, geothermal etc will ultimately make most feasible with two decades and thus the energy problem is solved.

The SIGNAL we must send now is that we have a rational policy. Drilling WILL prove our point and the idea that coal and shale are off-limits is absurd. Canada alone has more than enough tar oil to last decades. We know the price of extraction will come down. The question is how much environmental damage is acceptable, how fast new production, when will Democrats really promote refineries including ones that will refine future fossil products such as tar, shale and coal, and what will politcos really do with the energy taxes.

As Tully said, already dams are killing off Salmon. Wind is 25 cents per kw. Energy reductions through less use make us less competitive at a crucial moment. Suing OPEC?...LOL The strategy is as plain as day. Get rid of those corn subsidies, accept that alternative energy has a time line of its own and some things like wave and dams create dangers. Government mandates alone are not the answer. Time for bringing all barrels on the target including programs to replace the electrical grid and increase mileage on transportation. What the Democrats are proposing now is Government controlled R and D, less consumption apart from increased energy efficiency, raising taxes, antagonizing oil producers, and in general aggravating an already bad situation. Their meme seems to be our greed, corruption, domination and stupidity must be curbed, rather than the application of available technology and market forces in advancing capitalism and Liberal Democracy. Now which candidate is closer to the latter?

MR, hope you are enjoying Italy. Stay cool?.

Bit of a disappointment, this.

Having been told so often how overpaying for energy is great because of the boost it gives to alt-energy technology, it comes as a blow to learn that the big Italian hyper-clean air-conditioning breakthrough consists of sweating like pigs.

nice problem to have

And some have suggested that no matter what we should KEEP oil prices artifically high through government fiat to encourage the development of alt-energy.

Boy, wouldn't that be a nice problem to have, deciding whether to keep prices artificiallyhigh?

I saw an article on Charlie Crist the other day, where Crist was sensibly saying that recent circumstances have made him ready to reconsider the feasibility of safe drilling/exploration. To me, that feels like everyday-joe-enlightenment.

Maybe the most aggravating part about the hardcore green view is the insistence that they are MORE enlightened because they insist on controlling the output of a multi-variable equation by constricting manipulation policies to obnly SOME variables. It's awful vexing. I feel your pain, Tullly. :-)

Do you think that interest rate hikes, when they come, will help stem the current tide?
__________
I have often said, and oftener think, that this world is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel. -Horace Walpole

yeah

Boy, wouldn't that be a nice problem to have, deciding whether to keep prices artificially high?

Yeah, it would, but the decision is an easy one, and can be prefaced with the phrases "Are you out of your mind, or do you really think it's a good idea to choke the economy and create human misery? If so, why?"

Do you think that interest rate hikes, when they come, will help stem the current tide?

Yes, to some degree as far as fuel prices go. Everything affects everything else. Trade-offs. Would it be good in general, all around? Sorry, my crystal ball is at the cleaners.

duly noted

Yep, not agreeing keeping prices artifically high would be good. Just wishing THAT was the problem instead of, I guess, genuinel;y high prices.

Also agreed that while interest rates may have some salutary effect on oil prices, they could have negative effects elsewhere. A series of hikes would probably, at minimum sweep any remaining "quick recovery" hopes off the table.When was the last time interest rate hikers had friends?
__________
I have often said, and oftener think, that this world is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel. -Horace Walpole

Hi Bri

Not to discount greedy oil/auto companies and speculators, but the solution appears at hand. There is plenty of fossil fuel to bridge the gap if we're honest about our efforts across the board. There is coastal oil and gas (see Norway for carbon sequestering) and plenty of shale oil in acceptable areas. No gas, few tourists Colorado. There are also some great modern nuclear designs that would go a long way towards terror-proofing and waste storage. I wonder when we'll even begin modernizing our electrical grid. And how disingenuous are the Democrats over the dam issue killing salmon or Dems new offer to allow new refineries? Again, not to forget Republicans and Big Oil, they do sound a bit saner these days than the Democrats. Hell, Pelosi and Obama want to sue OPEC. If we don't do something fast, the US will continue to pay interest on the almost 1 trillion we have borrowed from China. A move to extract would psychologically send a huge signal America is not out of it, nor will we forget the energy capacity the US and Canada have together, not including our neighbors to the south.

True enough.

Activists and partisans can finger-point and pimp their preferred "solutions" all they want, but this is the reality--we must expand and fortify our domestic production of our energy sources, or be forever dependent on the kindness of strangers, many of whom wish us to dry up and blow away, picking off bits of our national flesh along the way.

To help ourselves in the short term, we must act for the long term.

That really is the point, isn't it? Whatever plan we come up with MUST involve increasing domestic supply on energy. It doesn't need to be ANWR, but there are a lot of other eco-safe places we can look at. We really do need to start drilling domestically. Greedy oli companies and speculators are a big deal, but taxing oil profits isn't a policy. We have to deal with demand and supply.

Oh, and Michael, they'll have to take my AC from my cold, dead hands. :-)

"In the world you will find tribulation, but be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world."

John 16:33

the italian policy

I hereby declare that the "energy prices too high for AC" policy shall henceforth be known as the "get used to the smell" approach to rising energy costs.

Insert smell hippie joke ____(here)____.

__________
I have often said, and oftener think, that this world is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel. -Horace Walpole

Recent comments

Advertisements
StubbornFacts.us does not endorse the content of any advertisement

Featured Movie

Syndicate

Syndicate content

Who's online

There are currently 0 users and 2 guests online.