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"If you're independent, Obama's press secretary Robert Gibbs has a shot at convincing you--even if you're conservative..."

Submitted by Rafique on Sat, 10/24/2009 - 12:38am

"...even if you're wildly biased, even if your organization is almost dictatorial in structure. Even if you're Rupert Murdoch! But not, I think, if you're Fox."

Mickey Kaus, on the problem with Fox News:

I think it's pretty clear MSNBC and the NYT and Breitbart.tv are not neutral. They all have an agenda and they pursue it. But they are independent. The Obama White House can't tell Bill Keller what to do. They can't tell Keith Olbermann what to do. (They can suck up to him, and it will probably work, but that's a different issue.) Breitbart is for sure independent--I can't see anyone telling him what to do.

I think Fox is also not neutral (which, again, doesn't bother me) but it's also not independent (which does). This isn't because it's owned by Rupert Murdoch--moguls are, typically among the more independent sorts. It's because it's run by Roger Ailes. I have zero faith that Ailes is independent of the Republican party or, specifically, those Republicans who have occupied the White House recently--the Bushes.

Read the whole thing.

An interesting viewpoint...

An interesting viewpoint... Clearly, he has no issues or problems with news and opinion outlets being slanted or ideological, and even seems to believe (as I do), that this is the "wave of the future" and we're only going to see more of it in generations to come (now whether I think the fusing of news reporting and analysis is a good thing is an entirely different issue, but just because something is a bad idea doesn't mean we're not still going to see it happen). I suppose this stands to reason for one who is, essentially, a professional opinionist.

But essentially, his argument rests on the assumption that Fox is taking (or did take or would take) its marching orders from the Republican Party (and specifically, the Bush Administration), while left-leaning counterparts (he offers MSNBC, among others) maintain their independence and can't be directed about by the Democratic Party... It would be an interesting social science study to determine the validity of this assumption, although Kaus makes no attempt to do so other than to cite a single piece of anecdotal evidence, so we shouldn't necessarily accept it at face value (remember the mantra of the sabermetricians: "In God we trust.... everyone else must show statistics."). Still, even if it were true, this is a slightly different argument than what has been offered by the Obama Administration, which suggests that Fox is the only institution with an ideology and an agenda and is therefore worse than the "real" news sources... which include, among others, the left-leaning ideological outlets already conceded by Kaus.

I personally think the rise of the "packaged news story" isn't such a great thing. Oh, to be sure, it was always there, but not in the degree that we see today, such that the first time many Americans are hearing about an event, it is coming to them polished, spun, and dressed up to fit within clean partisan boxes-- no critical thinking necessary! I would be willing to grant Kaus's point that an organization that took it to the next level-- i.e., that essentially was an Administration press service masquerading as a news source-- is somewhat "worse" than what the other "ideological, but independent" sources are doing, but want to point out that (a) this is not what I believe the Obama Administration has stated to date, and in any case (b) he made no attempt to prove that assumption and just telling me that "Mickey Mantle was a better base runner than Willie Mays, because I saw them both play" is downright meaningless, if I don't get to see some data behind it. Kaus hasn't earned the right to prove something by fiat... I can't think of anyone who has.

--Bobby

I read the whole thing....

....and its a conspiracy theory.

I think Fox is also not neutral (which, again, doesn't bother me) but it's also not independent (which does). This isn't because it's owned by Rupert Murdoch--moguls are, typically among the more independent sorts. It's because it's run by Roger Ailes. I have zero faith that Ailes is independent of the Republican party or, specifically, those Republicans who have occupied the White House recently--the Bushes. As I said, I think if Karl Rove called Ailes in 2003 and said "We don't want so much coverage of X" it's extremely likely that X would not be covered on Fox. A ... suggestive example of Fox's loyalty is the debate on immigration, in which Ailes' network initially seemed to try valiantly--against the beliefs of most of its audience--to push the Bush White House line in favor of "comprehensive" legalization (while brushing aside its viewers' views).

It's certainly possible, in theory, to have a faux news organization that pretends to be an ordinary, ideologically biased journalistic outlet but that, at the top, is actually taking orders from Moscow, or from Kennebunkport. That news organization might have lots of viewers and money and White House press passes and some great on-air correspondents--it's not as if you could rip off their masks to uncover the alien underneath...

This has it all conspiracy theory wise...

1) Paranoia...
2) The substitution of "Its POSSIBLE!" for real evidence or proof
3) Its unfalsifiable in that Kaus is claiming "They may look normal, but they are ALIEN UNDERNEATH!!!" (I swear, Kaus souds like David Icke here, the only difference being Icke believes he's talking about actual aliens.)
4) Where are the whistleblowers? Murdoch has been around for how long? What, has no one ever left his employ? Is he bumping them off?

You can see at the end of Kaus' piece that he has nothing evidence wise, because he contradicts himself. He begins by saying that he isn't talking about the parts of Fox that are opinion based, but his "evidence" that they were in the bag for Bush concerning Harriet Miers (at Murdoch's secret bidding mind you) is???? The opinion panel section of Brit Humes show! (Does Kaus not read his own stuff as he's writing?)

adding...

...I love the double standard that is employed (and not just by Kaus) that the framing of issues (i.e. what is considered "news" in the first place) when done by the New York Times or some other liberal friendly organization, is considered "natural" and above question, while Fox's talking about Van Jones or the escapades of ACORN are proof of a vast right wing conspiracy. (I'm reminded of the old Bloom County where Milo peeks in at the editorial room of a major metropolitan paper and hears an editor say something like "Our plan to undermine the will of the American people is working." And another editor replies, "Excellent. I'll inform Moscow." To which Milo turns to the reader and says "Didn't you always suspect as much?" - THAT was obviously playing such paranoia for the laughs it deserved. THIS is just as laughable, except it is the White House that is using this as their operating procedure.)

The upshot is the general fodder that dominates sites like the Daily Kos or Firedoglake is considered mainstream (and is drawn upon my MSM routinely) while the concerns that dominate PowerLine or Hot Air are ignored (except by Fox).

Umm, I think you're going to have to prove that, Rich.

The upshot is the general fodder that dominates sites like the Daily Kos or Firedoglake is considered mainstream (and is drawn upon my MSM routinely) while the concerns that dominate PowerLine or Hot Air are ignored (except by Fox).

I don't see much evidence of the mainstream outlets drawing that much from Kos or FDL, nearly as much as Fox draws from the right-wing press. Case in point: the tea parties. If MSNBC or CNN had covered the anti-war protests during the Bush era the Fox covered the tea parties, the right would've gone nuts.

If you've got $50,000 on ya...

...I'll gladly hire a team of undergrads to help me run a comprehensive content analysis of the six organizations I listed (treating the NYT as a stand-in for the MSM). Barring that I can only supply anecdotal evidence....

but lets look at today and see what/how Fox and the NYT covered those topics over the last 10 days (since Oct. 15th), shall we.. (and I'm doing this real time)

OK.

Powerlines top three stories right now:

1. George Will saying nice things about Michelle Bachman.

Fox News: Nothing, although an editorial did note that MSNBC's Chris Matthews basically called her a whore "the Mata Hari of Minnesota." Classy as always (and not misogynist at all! Perish the thought!)

NYT. WEll according to the search result, there have been two stories. One labels Bachmann "an outsized celebrity," so I think we can tell where that "news" story is going.

The other looks uncritically at what the St. Pete Times wrote about Bachmann, because what are newspapers for if not to take information they find uncritically. (I had raised serious issues with PolitFact [sic] earlier in the month BTW, but I'm not surprised the NYT added no original reporting or analysis to the work of the St. Pete Times.... I forget... which one of those is the "paper of record"?))

2. Col. Kemp's remarks concerning the UN "War Crime" finding against Israel.

Fox: Nothing, although Kemp is mentioned in an AP story they reprinted online.

NYT: Nothing, although Kemp gets a mention in an op-ed.

3. Story about Cheney's speech, specifically that the Obama admin lied when it said no intelligence reports had been passed from the Bush admin forward.

Fox News & NYT: Both cover Cheney/Obama spat extensively (obviously). Neither have picked up on whether the Obama admin lied about intelligence reports.

Over at Hot Air:

1. Tripling the Budget of HUD's "housing couselling" service despite auditers finding it reiddled with waste and abuse.

NYT: Nada
Fox: Nada

2. The cooling of French/U.S. relations

NYT: Missed that one.
Fox: Yes. Did that one. (Though a Reuters story was the origination of the issue.)

[skipping a video of the California state treasurer]

3. Gallup Poll on Obama's Nobel.

Fox: Didnt cover it.
NYT: Didnt cover it.

So we have 6 stories from 2 right leaning sites:

Fox covered: 1 fully, 1 partially.
NYT covered: 0 fully, 1 partially, 1 diametrically opposed story.

I'll have to come back with the Left leaning blogs, as life is calling.

TO BE CONTINUED

THis is harder then I thought....

...as the DK is so entirely devoid of content... so I'll keep going until I get three news stories.

1. Republicans are retard who dont like Halloween. Not a news story.

2. Douglas Holtz-Eakin is a retard for thinking bi-partisanship is something other then obedience to Demcoratic demands. Not a news story. *sigh*

3. Break out the torches to urge/intimidate/whatever members of Congress about health care. That fine, but not a news story.

4. Recap of science. (A. hide your atheism when talking to religious retards; B. The Superfreaknomic people are retards, C. Oh religious people are retards...had they mentioned that already? D. Exosolar planets are cool.) Uh, none of this is political news.

5. Obama talks about small business. *hallalujah!!!! NEWS!!

Fox: Covered it

NYT: Covered it

6. Another "round up" (I'm gonna pull out bits to get to three news stories as I'm sick of this pointless hateful garbage.) George Will is a retard (for not hating Michelle Bachman). Nope, not news. Rudy Giuliani is a racist (for campaigning for Bloomberg and saying he prefers Bloomberg wins - the horror) Also, not news...but I'll treat it as news just for giggles.

NYT: Well...of course they covered it. It was one of their columnists who called Rudy a racist to being with.

Fox: Dont have anything on Rudy campaigning for Bloomberg. It must be a conspiracy the way they dont talk about Republicans.

7. Voting to raise the Federal Debt Limit (NEWS!)

NYT: Nope. Missed that one. Oh they (I mean the AP) did a basic story on the Federal Debt but they seem unaware that the Federal Debt and Congress are somehow related.

Fox: Covered it while covering Congress. (Novel thought)

Onto Firedoglake (thank God... I cant believe I said that)

1. McCain is an idiot and pushes bad telecom policies. (news-ish)

NYT: Covered it.

Fox: covered it

2. A group few have heard of are trying to get initiatives on Missouri ballots, but havent yet (almost news)

NYT and Fox: No, usually something has to happen before anyone talks about it. Who wants to bet the NYT mentions it first (if it gets mentioned)?

3. Honduras plays loud music at Brazilian embassy just because they dont want a socialist dictator. Spoilsports.

NYT: Yep. Runs with Reuters who calls it an "attack"

Fox: Nope.

OK, (when they do news) we have 6 stories here:

NYT covered: 4 fully, 1 not at all, 1 jury still out
Fox covered: 3 fully, 2 not at all, 1 jury still out

For what its worth... Your mileage may vary

Adding adding....

..rereading Kaus:

If you're independent, there's always a chance you'll change your mind. At the least, you have to make fresh calculations about your views and interests, which means that in a free society there will be a steady proliferation of nodes of thought.

This is gibberish. A "proliferation of nodes of thought"? Sheesh, I teach existentialism for a living which is pretty famous for being deliberately obscure (or obtuse)...but the American citizenry is really expecting its press to express a "steady proliferation of nodes of thought"?????

Uh no. Independence does not mean allowing oneself to be "convinced" by the Obama press secretary. What does this "conviction" result in exactly? A new "node of thought" or a tendency to let Obama get by without "undue" criticism. "Undue" of course as defined by the Obama administration itself.

Kaus' argument, such as it is, is a dumb one.

Appreciate the effort, Rich, although I still don't find this

conclusive. Remember it's also about how stories are covered. The NYT misses things that other MSM outlets catch, BTW. The Times didn't cover the Gallup story, but I think NBC did. I'll have to do a link search as well, but I'm willing to argue that Fox takes the posture of the rightosphere, more than the MSM outlets do for the leftosphere (at least on the major issues: the health care debate, stimulus, foreign policy, ACORN, etc).

Alright...lets talk about the how

What was the difference about "how" Fox covered the ACORN story?

1. Fox looked at the videos coming out of BG and said "THis looks like news"
2. The rest of the MSM either never look at a site like BG (which some political reporters admitted was true) OR they did see it and decided "we dont care about this" and moved on.

Eventually, of course, the story became too well known to be ignored. Members of Congress started reacting to the story in their legislative capacities - which the NYT reported before they informed their readers why members of Congress would be so concerned about ACORN.

So what happened after that point?

3. Fox continued to cover the story, and with each new revelation noted that the denials of the ACORN folks were not holding up very well.
4. The rest of the MSM were more then happy to give the ACORN spin of the story. The NYT went as far as doctoring a quote from ACORN spokespeople to remove an obvious falsehood. (They said they didnt want to "confuse" their readers by pointing out the fact that ACORN was lying.)

Now, we had a public controversey arise where an organization which recieves taxpayer money is under fire. That organization has issued responses. Fox has deemed it part of their job as journalists to guage the truthfulness of those responses. The NYT felt their journalistic job was covered by simply passing on the denials, except for when the denials could be strengthed by a little judicious editing.

Kaus looks at the episode outlined above and decides this is an example of Fox behaving badly.

I look at Kaus and think he's a loon.

And, yes, I do wonder how the NYT would cover the same type of story changing the organization involved from ACORN to The Heritage Foundation. The NYT has invited everyone to think that by their half-assed "reportage" on this story.

Besides, we both know the real complaint about Fox is not HOW they are covering stories, but THAT they were covering stories other MSM editors deemed to be non-stories. I'd like to be shown HOW Fox's coverage of Van Jones signing a turther petition was egregious. I would argue the complaint was really that they were covering it at all. (And never mind that a large group of news watching people were interested in the story. What do those bozos know! They probably all eat mayonaisse sandwiches!)

And really that is the rub of it. What we really have here is a battle between two ideological visions - not left vs. right really - but elitest vs. democratic. The editorial board of the NYT operates as if it is their God given right to set the agenda for whats "important" in this country, and they get pissed off when there are party crashers. "What's THAT? A concern of the right leaning blogosphere? oooh how gauche. It simply is NOT what the right sort of people are discussing at the correct sort of cocktail party in Manhattan or Washington. Someone please tell them to go away."

Once the elite has decided (in Kaus' terms "been convinced") well then that obviates the need to present another side fo teh story. This is why ABC felt perfectly comfortable to give a WH an hour long infomercial on their health care plans without allowing for any dissenting opinion to be presented. The elite had been "convinced" and this was simply an extension of their new found conviction.

The truth of this can be seen in the differences in the way "right of center" memes are travelling compared to "left of center" memes. I'd argue that ROC memes, if you traced their origin, do not often start on O'Relliy or Hannity or Beck, let alone on the Fox news programs. I've found, from reading the blogosphere that I've known about certain issues long before they ever make it onto the airwaves of Fox. (For example, the Van Jones truher story was dug up by Gateway Pundit originally.)

LOC memes, on the other hand, tend to be "top down" affairs. This explains why, as you have noticed, the MSM is highly "selective" about how they cover things like protests. By definition those are rarely examples of elite driven action, so of course they dont care about them...unless they can highlight them for other purposes. (Like those vile and hateful "Christians" who "protest" funerals for gays and what not - Why is it that that handful of imbeciles and lunatics get covered so often by the MSM? And I dont think this will be covered by "it bleeds it leads.")

I'm not surprised you haven't found my work "conclusive" - is this your way of telling me you wont be funding my content analysis project?? :-) - it couldn't be conclusive. It was meant to show there was another way of looking at things that is coherent and at least worth considering. Which, come to think about it, is exactly what I find so lacking in Kaus' vision of the world. He looks at Fox and sees nothing he ever needs to consider. Instead he rails against the loss of elite perogative.

Well, the ACORN story isn't a good example of the point

that Kaus (and I guess myself) was trying to make. The MSM droppedthe ball on that, larger due to the perception that it was a right-wing story. Thething is, the way Fox and the rightosphere cover ACORN, or Van Jones, or Afghnistan, isn't objective, and follows the same narrative. They darw from the same source.

Again, back to the protests: If MSNBC or CNN, or the NYT covered the anti-war or immigration protests the way Fox covered the tea parties (or the 9-12 protests), a stink would be raised, and rightly so. Selective coverage of protests? How much coverage did Fox have of the gay rights protest the other day, or the aforementioned immigration reform protest? Just as many people showed up, but not hardly a mention, because it doesn't fit their ideology. CNN covered the tea parties (although a few of their correspondents did do so mockingly).

Kaus out to have provided more evidence, but I think he touches on an inuitive point, about Fox's biases.

As to the funding of the project, as long as Monopoly money counts, I'll get that right out to you. :-) Seriously though, someone ought to take up that challenge. Maybe we can get two outfits for ooposite sides of the spectrum (Heritage and Brookings, Pew and MRC) to do it, and both do their own studies, and let people make up their minds.

otoh, otoh

On the one hand, I can't help but to agree that I find fox news to be far more representative of the Republican party line than other outlets are of the democratic part line. IMO, it's impossible to miss.

On the other hand, conservatives are a somewhat more monolithic bunch. The democratic party has been historically and is now composed of a coalition of special interest groups much more so than the GOP. That puts them at odds more, and makes them more fractious and prone to fragmentation.

This difference could by itself account for most or all of the difference Kaus seems so enamored of. Maybe Fox just has an easier choir to preach to... . And that makes sense to me. Becuase as offputtingly toadyish as Fox News seems to me, they really don't seem any more sanctimonious and plain old full of sh!t as Keith Olberman.

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