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Sayeth Ilya Somin. To which I have said before: yes and yes. Third parties don't work, and it isn't desirable that they should. It would be far better for libertarians to invest time and effort into bringing their talents and agencies into revitalizing the GOP and strengthening the libertarian voice therein. While I don't approve of libertarianism in its raw form, it's good stuff to cut conservatism with, each tending to curb the other’s worst impulses.
Added: Jon Henke has a good post summing up the problem with Mike Huckabee's brand of Republican populist liberalism. That fits in well with what I'm suggesting in this post, because if libertarians recede from the GOP, it can only strengthen the hand of folks like Huckabee.
Agree and disagree and
Agree and disagree and agree. Yes, the Libertarian Party as exists is a failure, as I could have told you thirty years ago, and as anyone who ever attended a Libertarian convention with a clear mind and observational skill could attest. But this?
Third parties don't work, and it isn't desirable that they should.
Seems quite overly absolutist to me on both assertions. The GOP itself was once a third party, and it certainly seems to me that it was desirable that they succeeded early on. It was certainly desirable that they succeed in the years 1860-1865, no?
My quibble at rhetoric aside, your prescription for libertarians is IMHO spot on. And some libertarianism thinning out modern "progressivism" would not be a bad thing either, for the same reason you cite re: conservatism.
Yeah. It seems to me that the the issue is not that third
parties cannot work, rather they haven't worked since 1865, because most third parties have chosen not to work, by either sucking at their job, or limiting themselves to narrow, ideological causes. There's a reason most of these parties are either ultra-right, or ultra-Left.
As a moderate Dem, I agree that libertarianism could help curb some of our excesses as well.
"In the world you will find tribulation, but be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world."
John 16:33
Gotta define "work" first.
Gotta define "work" first. Succeed as stand-alone new parties in the long term? Not bloody often. But "work" in the sense of shifting elections and affecting the national discourse? Seems to me that they're "worked" in that sense fairly often right up until today. Just ask Ross Perot...or Bill Clinton...or Al Gore.
True enough, Tully. Vital distinction there.
I was thinking in terms of what I suspect Simon and Ilya Somin were, in terms of a long-term viable political party, but yeah, you're point is definitely good.
"In the world you will find tribulation, but be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world."
John 16:33
Or it could have something
Or it could have something to do with the fact that since 1865, opressive ballot access laws have been put in place that serve to make it difficult to form a third party, and politics today also requires media access and big money.
As a result the only long running third parties we have today are minority parties like the Greens or Libertarians that will never catch a majority of Americans, but survive because of the passion of their respective bases, which supply them with signatures to keep them on the ballot.
However, if a few things changed, like more open ballot laws and freer media access, the Republicans and Democrats would have collapsed a long time ago--for years there's been a desire for a centrist party. That doesn't happen because of institutional barriers.
I worked with the Reform Party in the 90s, and several sitting Congressmen and Senators told us that they wanted to switch but were afraid it would be political suicide. Why? Because to run in a third party it costs much more--you have to spend a lot of your campaign funds just to get on the ballot-- you receive less media access, and you don't have the strong party machines that have but institutionalized over a century.
In the Reform Party part of the problem was also that there were internecine disputes because the party, short of getting some shifted base, had to build itself from the bottom up--an impossible task. Third parties have this idea that they should be completely grassroots and focus on local races first--its a nice idea but it doesn't work.
Historically in the US the only way a new party has formed and become successful is by splitting from an existing party. The Republican Party when it started was mainly made up of ex-Whigs. When the Progressive Party formed at the turn of the century, it split off the Republican Party.. and incidentally disappeared when new ballot access laws were put into place because of the fear of fringe parties like Socialists and Communists.
If a new third party is viable it won't be because it built itself from the grassroots, but because the two existing party coalitions will collapse. -- And that still is very possible today.
In my view, the Republican and Democratic parties don't work. Government is corrupt and continue to be corrupt until some of our electoral laws change that help break these institutional party machines. Parties need the threat of a Senator leaving their ranks instead of having all of their Senators basically in their pockets.
good points
Good points Brian. Maybe Simon is preaching the virtue of oligopoly here. You've given me something else to think about.
__________
I have often said, and oftener think, that this world is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel. -Horace Walpole
Or it could have something
Can you give us an example of one of these supposedly "oppressive" ballot access laws? It seems to me that requiring a party to demonstrate a minimal level of support before putting it on the ballot is perfectly reasonable. In Indiana, for example, you need 33,000 signatures to get on the gubernatorial ballot as a new party, IIRC. The other week, Mitch Daniels won reelection with 1,542,371 to Jill Thompson's 1,067,863 votes. If you can't get 33,000 signatures - roughly one fortieth of the winning candidate's total - it seems to me that you're not a viable contender. (The libertarian party candidate, by the way, won 56,651 votes, so it seems that the ballot access laws aren't insurmountable.)
I don't want us to turn into Europe or California, where you have a bazillion people on the ballot. More choice is not always a good thing. The two-party system has served America very well by keeping the fringes sidelined and conditioning power on an ability to appeal to a relatively stable middle ground.
"When someone says their heart needs lifting, don't ask how come, ask how high."
It differs from state to
It differs from state to state, Simon. In Georgia in order to run for a Congressional seat as a third party candidate you need 10,000 signatures. Only four candidates in the history of the US have gathered more than 10,000 signatures for a Congressional race. Often then the deadlines are designed to be too short. Some states even with only four to five parties on the ballot as it is have tried to institute even stricter ballot access laws. The Pennsylvania legislature for instance tried to increase the requirements on third parties in the 90s---increase the number of signatures required by 20,000 and shorten the deadline---but was vetoed by Governor Ridge.
Then what often happens is that even if you collect enough signatures by the deadline you'll be brought into court by Democrats or Republicans who will challenge your signatures without you having enough time or money to collect more. Its a very costly process that spends all of the campaign funding for third parties, so they can't spend it on actual campaigning.
In most places Democrats and Republicans are exempt from this process or have far fewer requirements. But they control the process and write all the rules for minor parties--they design them to be difficult. In most states its also easier for an Independent candidate to get on the ballot than a third party candidate to get on the ballot. Why? An Independent name on the ballot isn't any less clutter than a third party name.
So the point is we have a system where its easier not to form a new party, because you have an uphill battle. The Libertarian candidate who won 56,651 votes probably had to spend 95% of his available campaign cash just getting on the ballot. And he probably needed close to twice as many signatures as required by law to withstand lawsuits designed to take him off the ballot.
How are you going to win more than 56,651 votes if you don't have enough funding to get more visibility? That's why many would be Libertarian candidates run on the Republican ticket. ----That's why Ron Paul is elected as a Republican and not a Libertarian. There's no other reason.
Some ballot laws have already been taken to court and have been thrown out by judges. The judges have decided that they've been designed to make it difficult for third parties. That itself is expensive also---Perot's campaigns in 92 and 96 spent millions of dollars just on lawsuits.
California doesn't have a bazillion people on the ballot. It only did for that recall election because the ballot had no restrictions at all. California's ballot access law are actually one of the most steep in the country--you can't gain a ballot spot by petitioning. You need to gain a certain number of voters registered in your party to qualify for the ballot. And the party isn't even listed on voter registration forms if you don't have a certain number of people already registered, through writing in the party name. A lot of voters who would want a third party simply decide they want to be registered Republican or Democrat so they can vote in the major parties primaries.
There are a few states that have very lenient ballot access laws, like Colorado and Delaware and they don't have their ballots swamped with candidates names.
Primary elections for Democrats and Republicans also don't have dozens of candidates on the ballot, despite it being easier to get on the ballot. In Pennsylvania in order to be qualified for a major party primary election you just need 2,000 signatures. They don't have any problem there. But an Independent candidate currently needs 67,000 signatures.
The goal of ballot access reforms should not be to have more parties on the ballot but to have the parties that are capable of getting on the ballot have an easier time doing that. ---ie Without spending all of their money on petitions and lawsuits. Any party that can collect 2,000 signatures can also collect 67,000 signatures with the time and money. And given how few Presidential candidates even get 0.5% of the vote, why not give parties that receive 0.5% automatic ballot access for the next election, that would only be one or two parties. Instead, they have to re-do the process of petitioning every election cycle. (Republicans and Democrats don't. Some states don't even cite their majority status but 'historical reasons')
The point is to make party building less like a vicious cycle where you need organization to get candidates, but you need candidates to get organization.
Or, we can go back to the way things used to be---when parties weren't even on the ballot, and just names were.
bare minimum
At a bare minimum, the threat that a 3rd party (like the GOP once was) could replace one of the existing 2 parties is necessary if we don't want democrats and republicans to behave as though their positions are due to birthright or natural law.
I'll cheerfully acknowledge that from a pure systems functioning PoV, having 3 truly viable parties at once would
[1]be way more complex and
[2]could definitely lead to perverse democratic outcomes where the government's policy is a poor match for public preference.
If I think about what the nature of a conceivably successful 3rd party could be, I think it must [1]not be a niche party incapable of capturing 1/3 market share and thus must
[2]have some sort of philosophical identity that applies across a broad spectrum of issues.
This is important because any viable major party must have a sensible and philosophically distinct stake in any issue that a substantial portion of the electorate thinks is important. For example, libertarianism has a position on gay marriage that makes sense and is distinct based on their philosophy. But the green party fails this test. Suppose they support gay civil rights...this doesn't really bear any relationship to their core philosophy of protecting Earth's environment. That means they can be co-opted.
It is likely the case that, due to the aforementioned additional complexity induced from having 3 viable parties at once, our system will continue to show a strong tendency to default back to a 2-party equilibrium. But anyone who studies systems and mathematical models knows that not all systems are truly characterized by a preference for such a narrow equilibrium. Instead, behavior may depend on a small number of variables. Change one of these sensitive variables by enough, and the model may establish a new equilibrium that bears little resemblance to the old one. Or the system may fail to establish a new equilibrium.
Oh, and what Tully said. Libertarian philosophy is eminently capable of being a palliative on progressivism, especially its more authoritarian forms. I don't see much reason why libertarianism ought to be regarded as a better fit for the GOP. Unless its simply because the GOP is currently co-opting more libertarian philosophy than the democrats are.
_________
I have often said, and oftener think, that this world is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel. -Horace Walpole
The problem with the
The problem with the Libertarian party as it exists is that even if every obstacle that exists for it were removed it has a ceiling of about 10%, simply because the party refuses to be pragmatic.
The Green position on gay marriage also does relate to its philosophy on the environment.. the green movement is actually more than about the environment.. it came out of the 60s and 70s and the idea was partly that being green was also better for people's economic well being, because of the focus on things like conservation. The idea in the green movement is that society is better managed by the community for the public's well-being and for social justice, which includes all of those of concepts of equal rights. Like people have to live within the environment they also have to live with each other and within a diverse society, and foster values that make that possible. 'Green' is an analogy to a lot of other ideals they believe in.
But like Libertarians, Greens as they exist today couldn't get more than 10% support.
Parties like Libertarians and Greens get on the ballot year after year because they do have a distinct ideology which attracts a steady base of support.
A major party doesn't rely on a distinct philosophy--it relies on a coalition--it always has.
Exactly. Milling people through the two-party system encourages
compromise and coalition-building, whereas third parties encourage purism and fragmentation.
bug or feature?
I wasn't implying that the libertarians were in better shape....I agree that they're too zealous. As to the green connection, I anticipated the sort of vague connection you ended up describing, something about the environment and thew community, but dismissed it too silly to take seriously. At best it feels like a stretch to me.
Ok, I'll go ahead and agree with this while also contending its truer to say that major parties rely both on coalitions and upon getting many of its members to believe that it has a distinct philosophy. Which accounts for the persistent gap between what they say and what they do, I guess.
I question whether you see your description above as a bug or a feature. Seems to me Simon is insisting it's a feature, while you tend to look at it as a bug.
__________
I have often said, and oftener think, that this world is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel. -Horace Walpole
Gosh the hand wringing is getting...
So why is it so hard to see an election as a repudiation of an administration and a party (by association) and not the principles underlying the party. If its going to be either Libertarian-Republican or Populist-Cultural Conservative-Republican then either party will be a permanent minority. It always seemed to me that the beauty of the two party system was that fairly divergent interest groups came together under the umbrella of a larger party, joined by A FEW, KEY, COMMON INTERESTS. So you libertarians, your challenge is to figure what of what the socons say is ok with you and whether the "rest" is big enough of an issue that you want to "strike out on your own". Likewise with the Socons vis a vis the libertarians.
I don't think that's much of a stretch. Socons, at least the Evangelical variety that I see a lot, aren't big government types and well understand the virtues of hard work and self-sufficiency. They also see charity as a key non-governmental role (but they don't want the government to be an adversary). I believe Bill Buckley has eloquently written in the past about the conservative's views on public morality (that would be ok with a SoCon).
I didn't hear such loud belly-aching in 2004, and that was after the Medicare Drug benefit and NCLB. So what is this? We only want to retreat to the "moral highground" when we're on the wrong side of an election? Now that's principle for you!!
Chris